Episode Two: Jeff & John


Jeff Stormer roasts John Darnielle.


Co-Producer, Editor, & Host: Tess Cocchio

Co-Producer, Editor, & Sound Designer: Julia Schifini

Theme Music Composer: Emily E. Meo

Graphic/Visual Art Designer: Mandy Corcoran

Creative Consultant: Wil Williams

Find & Support John Darnielle's Work:

The Mountain Goats

Find & Support Jeff Stormer's Work:

Party of One PodcastAll My Fantasy ChildrenTalkin' Nog




Google document link: (click here)

Downloadable pdf: (click here)





TESS (as narrator): Welcome to Honey Roast, a wholesome hopepunk podcast where every other week, guest stars “roast” a creator that they love and are inspired by. Together, we’re bringing a little more love and hope in the world and introducing listeners to new creators through sweetness and delight. Major thank you to our Indiegogo Producers who helped make this show a reality: Robert Anderson, Robert Van de Motter, Alex Hensley, Kyle Decker, Richard Kreutz-Landry, Ryan Boelter, Tau Zaman, and Bradley Duesler.

JEFF: This is a magical element that is given to me through the art of this one person.


TESS (as narrator): This is Honey Roast.

JEFF: I know that this is not, like, the most important thing in the world, but it's the most important thing in the world to me.

You very rarely get that experience.

It's funny because I almost struggle to talk about it a little bit.

It's a beautiful feeling of, like, sharing that sense of validation.

TESS (as narrator): I'm Tess and I'm your host.


TESS: Hi, Jeff.

JEFF: How are you? I'm so happy to be here.

TESS: I'm so glad you're here. Tell me about who you're going to be roasting, Jeff.

JEFF: Of course! I'm going to be roasting John Darnielle, lead singer and songwriter for the band The Mountain Goats. It is a band that I, I have a lot of feelings about. And I'm excited sort of put those feelings on microphone.

TESS: Wonderful! The Mountain Goats actually just recently came across my feed because of the whole D&D kind of exposure thing.  And I still haven't listened to them because you told me that you were going to be roasting John Darnielle, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on him and your experiences before I encountered him.

JEFF: High stakes, sort of a lot of pressure on me now but I'm feeling, feeling... I'm feeling alright with that.

TESS: Good! So I want you to tell me about the first time you encountered John's work.

JEFF: Sure, The Mountain Goats were something that I was sort of peripherally aware of for a very long time because they were a band that my little brother was very into so, like, it was something that was always kind of... like I was peripherally aware of it. And I and other people that I like, like and respected had been like, "Oh, I like this song by them." One of those things that for a very long time, I was like, "Oh Okay, I know that this is the thing that exists." But like, I like for whatever reason, it just I had never had the time to like fully engage with it. That changed around the year 2015. And like most stories in my life, this story starts with a little thing called professional wrestling.

And it started because I saw a notification on the AV club that had said, "The Mountain Goats are making an album about professional wrestling. And here is the first song and it is about a wrestler named Chavo Guerrero Senior." And I immediately sat there for a second and I was like, "Well, alright, I'm going to listen to this!" Like, this is, this is that band that my little brother likes. This is that band that I saw a recommended in an interview with John Hodgman a while back, like, this is a band that like I like this is that band that I've been sort of marginally aware of. And now there's going to be a song about... that's a weird choice for a wrestler! Chavo Guerrero is best known to a lot of wrestling audiences, myself included, as the father of Chavo Guerrero Junior, who was best known as the cousin of WWE Hall of Famer Eddie Guerrero. He's a... a sort of lesser fa-, like Chavo Guerrero Senior is not a prominent figure in professional wrestling.

And so it immediately caught my guard. I was like, "Okay, that's an odd pick, let's see what happens." And I remember I was sitting at my desk at my day job, and I put it on, and I was like, "Okay, this will be fun." And I started listening to it. And at first, I was smiling. And I was like, "Oh, this is, this is fun! Like, this is, you know, interesting and cute!" And then like, I started really listening to it. And I was like "Oh the music is great, like this is this is music. This is the sound that I like, right? Like this is sonically like the thing that I'm into", and then what hit me, again, sitting at my desk at my little cubicle, and my little office job. I'm sitting there listening to the lyrics, and it's about fandom in a very specific way. It is this Ode to a wrestler that was important to John as a child, right. And it specifically is about like, it says in the lyrics "Almost completely unknown outside of Texas and on the west coast."

So it's about a wrestler who is a regional hit, but who is nonetheless like the most important person in the world. And like, there's a very specific experience to that, that like even among media that I've encountered about, like, professional wrestling, or about like fandom spaces, you very rarely get that experience that like it put into it, it captured an emotional sense of this feeling of like, "I know that this is not like the most important thing in the world. But it's the most important thing in the world to me." And it and the lyrics go on to capture that sense of like, watching TV, in the middle of the night with your head in your hands. Like that childlike feeling of being like this is this is everything like this is the most important thing in the world. This is a magical element that is given to me through the art of this one person. And I'm sitting there like holding back tears, like hoping no one comes by to talk to me about work stuff. And it comes, the song like ends and I sit there for a minute. I'm like, "I guess I gotta listen to this again." And I push play, and I listened to it again. And I'm like, it's just this perfect picture of loving someone's work. It's this perfect picture of like, sort of the magic of any kind of like fiction, but like this very specific art form of professional wrestling about the idea that it's this art form that is staged, but with this veneer that it is real. And the idea that that like the fact that you kind of know it's not real, makes it more real? And it was this beautiful moment of like, it spoke to a part of this very particular fandom that I had, in a way that I had not really encountered anything else that had spoken about that kind of fandom before. And so like it just kind of moved me to tears in my little my little desk. And so I immediately hopped on to Facebook, you know, on my lunch break, because obviously I would never during work hours,

TESS: Of course not. Of course not.

JEFF: I immediately messaged my little brother like "hey", and I sent him the link to the healing. I was like, "hey, look, this is a thing. But also, what else should I listen to?" And he sent me some, he sent me some links, he sent me, he sent me one song. And then, ironically, another song... some friends and I have every year, the end of the year, we put together like a collaborative playlist, where everyone puts it five songs, you just pick five songs, that means something to you, and you make a playlist of it. After that song had finished. No, it's not going to bed, I put that playlist on and another mountain goat song comes on. And it was the song 'This Year', which is a beautiful, heartbreaking painful song. But it's, it's also like hopeful and like resilient in like a very beautiful way. The premise is... So I guess content warning here is we're about to get into some heavy subject matter.

TESS: Sure.

JEFF: There's a content warning here for specifically like parental child abuse. Just putting that out there and out there for listeners at home so they know.

TESS: Thank you.

JEFF: This Year comes from a song called The Sunset Tree which is about John's experiences growing up in an abusive household. And about like specifically after realize after it's written and recorded after his stepfather passed away. And so it's his experiences looking back on all that through the lens of this is something that is in the past and now, and now I'm sort of like thinking about it now that it's over. And This Year is sort of the the sort of big single off of that album. The crux of which is the chorus is just "I'm going to make it through this year, if it kills me." And like I was sitting there, listening to this and like, that line just hit me. And I was like, "Oh God, like that's beautiful." Like that such a beautiful, specific thing, right? Like that idea of like, it's this is like I'm in a bad spot. But I'm going to make it through if it kills me. And like I remember I was sitting there and I was like, I can't listen to any more of this at work. Like I need to like... I can't do this in an office. So I put it aside, I wrote down the songs that Ben recommended me and I was like, I was like this is going to be a thing. But I can't do it at work because like it's going to get way too real way too quick. So I listened to it... just started listening to it on like the drive home and like when I would take my walks and just listen to it and just be absorbed by like these very empathetic, painful, but like very human stories that were being told in this music, that was often just John Darnielle with a guitar telling someone's story very heart, in a very heartfelt way. And it just, I just fell deeper and deeper into this love of this music and these stories.

TESS: Did you find that your connection with the music also created an additional layer of connection with your brother who had been so connected to this music for for longer than you?

JEFF: Oh, absolutely. Because I immediately started being like, "This is so good. Like, tell me more about this music." And he was like, "Well, these are the albums that I really enjoy." And he gave me specific recommendations. And then he also, you know, was like "And these albums I don't like so much they're, you know..." He gave his reasons. And we talked through it. And he would like tell me about the albums. And I was like "Actually, I'm going to listen to that. Because that sounds like it might be more something that I'm interested in." And so yeah, we shared this and we still share this. We're really we'll just you know, we'll see something and just kind I send it over to I send it over to Ben when the announcement of the the Dungeons and Dragons, the Wizards of the Coast album came out. I sent that over to Ben the same day. I was like, "hey, by the way, this is a thing" and my little brother goes: "Yeah, this could not be more your brand if you try, like this is this is you." He's like, "I don't... Could they just maybe like announced the thing about eggnog because like that..." and I'm like that would probably be the only way that it would be like more specifically a Jeff Stormer experience.

TESS: That would be the trifecta.

TESS (as narrator): When Jeff refers to eggnog, and I call it a perfect trifecta, it's because Jeff three main loves are RPGs, wrestling, and eggnog. He hosts an annual show called Talkin' Nog: a yearly tradition honoring a yearly tradition. It's a podcast where it honors everyone's favorite creamy, spicy, boozy and egg based holiday treat. Well, not my favorite, but it's a really neat look at the past, present and future of the eggnog hobby and the people making it.

TESS: Is there a particular piece or a particular album that has continued to resonate to you throughout this time that you still just are so drawn to?

JEFF: Oh, yes, absolutely. The the album that I first discovered them through for the there was it's an album called Beat The Champ, which is a concept album of all songs about professional wrestling, and it tells stories of like different wrestlers, and different points in history. And so like I, I come back to that album a lot both because it is the first album that I sort of fell in love with and because they so perfectly captures sort of these emotional experiences around professional wrestling, that is an art form that, if you don't know me is very, very close to my heart. It's one that I am sometimes peripherally involved in and that I spend a lot of time thinking about. So I come back to that album a lot specifically to think about wrestling and to feel sort of the emotional experiences around it. And because like those songs just have an emotional connection to me.

There are, there are a few other songs This Year I, I ... has been, suffice it to say, my anthem of every year since 2016. So like, I keep coming back to that song and just that sentiment of like, I'm going to make it through this year if kills me. And... uh there's a few other songs that I could point to as like songs that like I just float to. One in particular it is also related to professional wrestling and there's a story here that I like a lot. So Beat The Champ comes out in 2015 one of my favorite wrestlers in the world, the woman named Sasha Banks, The Boss, known for being... known... who's, her wrestling character is very like cocky and kind of in-your-face. She calls herself The Boss, I think that says it all. And she just the day that it came out tweeted "Hey Mountain Goats, where's my song?" And it was and I remember because I followed her, I followed them both on Twitter, I saw this I was like, that's pretty good. That's a pretty good, like, that's a pretty good comment on Twitter. And then John responded like, "Well, this is sort of about like older territory wrestling, but because you asked, you'll have a song by the end of the tour."

Cut to three years later... song for Sasha Banks finally comes out. And it is a song that is simply telling the story of like, "This is something that like means something to me." And like about like loving something as a kid. And like having that feeling of like, "I need to do this". The lyrics that float back to me, is like, "I want to do right by my brother. And I want to do right by this feeling in my gut. Because everybody's got their own spot, find mine in 64 point type atop the top line, up on the top line." And it's about like her journey to become like a WWE Main Event Superstar. And like, I remember just listening to that going like "Yeah, yeah!" Like just as a person, as a wrestling fan as a fan of this particular wrestler, but as a person making art and making art like on my own terms. I remember just thinking like, "Yeah, I do want to find my spot. And I do want it to be on the top line, like I do..." Like this, it's, it's this beautiful, ode to having a thing that you want in the world and saying, like, I'm going to make this happen. And I'm going to bring this, I'm going to bring this into the world, I'm going to do it for the people in my life. So that, like, they can know that I accomplished it.

TESS: I love that. It's beautiful.

JEFF: It's it the music means a whole lot.

TESS: It sounds like there's so many different areas that like you can you can connect with and so many different ways that you can connect his work to your own experiences, to your own work to your own art that you're creating. Is there any particular way or time that you feel drawn to keep listening or to listen again, or to go back to his music?

JEFF: Oh, for sure. I think a lot of times, a lot of times I float to it, because a lot of his music is... I feel like dark is the easy way to put it. But he writes a lot of music about like difficult, like difficult subject matter, like people who are depressed and desperate and in, like, bad situations. So like whenever like I am feeling depressed or like I am really struggling in a place like there are specific songs that I'll float to and be like "He just captured the words that, the words that I'm feeling right now" like if I float to some of those songs, but also like, when I'm feeling... like that's, that's when a lot of those times I've looked at them, and I just It feels like it would be counter, counter intuitive to listen to music about people in bad situations when you are... when you feel like you were in a bad situation. But I find it incredibly affirming to just have someone who is not me be like "This is what a feeling." And for me to go like yeah, this is what I'm feeling right now.

TESS: Yeah, it's a validation.

JEFF: Exactly. And so I float to those, I float to those moments a lot. And then there are specific songs that I float to when I really want to feel that sense of either triumph. Or if not triumph, at least bitter perseverance, of like, "Do everything that makes you feel alive no matter what it is, as long as you don't hurt anybody... just stay alive". Is a lyric from a song called 'Amy aka Spent Gladiator One', which is... I go to that song a lot when I'm just like, I just need to do it, I need to do the stuff that makes me happy. And Gosh, darn it like to heck with everyone else like I need this is... I'm going to do this because it's going to push me it's going to get me through when things are rough. So like there are there are so many different songs that I float to when I'm just like in a specific place. The Mountain Goats are very key, very key elements of my modern mixtape arsenal. Because when I'm making a specific like emotional experience through a mixtape, I'm like, "Yup, here's a Mountain Goat song about this exact thing done. Boom." Track one.

TESS: You know, you've talked a lot about how you feel when you're listening to it. How do you feel it impacts your connections with others?

JEFF: It's funny because I almost struggle to talk about it a little bit. Because like, so much of the emotional experiences I have around it are so intense that like I struggle to talk about it because like, even on this podcast, I've been like, this a few times I've been talking about it and I've gotten choked up and had to like, dial it back for a split second. But also being able to talk about it and be like, "Yeah, there's this song that that means this to me" and to have someone else go "It means the same thing to me." It furthers that sense of validation. It furthers that sense of affirmation of like, "Oh, thank goodness, I am not the only person like feeling this. I'm not the only person in this position who's felt these feelings, who's thought these things." And so to hear not only someone like sing it, but to be able to talk to someone and say like, "Yes, right, that song, it talks about this thing so well." And like it's just a real, it's a beautiful feeling of like sharing that sense of validation.

TESS: That's perfect. It's beautiful.

TESS (as narrator): I can hear the passion that Jeff has for the connections that he's made with John's work, and how deep those must go. I asked him about that. And whether he thinks there's an album or a song for everyone that could provide that same connection and validation.

JEFF: I think so. I think that like, I think... I guess I would say like if you are looking for, you know, sunshine and like lo-fi beat if you're looking for lo-fi beats to chill to I think like I think that there that you're going to struggle a little bit with The Mountain Goats because I think there's an element of... just because, just because a lot of the lyrics are so sort of raw and you know, intense. I think that it can be easy to feel to go and be like, "Oh, I'm just gonna listen to a fun song about wrestling!" I had this exact experience where a friend of mine was like, "I think I'm gonna get into The Mountain Goats" and I was like "Oh, they have an album about wrestling" and he listened to half of it and he went "Yeah, I wasn't really prepared to like deal with wrestling in that context." Even though he's like a big wrestling fan. He's like "Yeah, it just it was way way more real than I was kind of thinking it was going to be?" And I was like "That sounds right." But then like, but then at the same time, you know, I pointed him to like other songs... or rather he partly, he discovered other songs and like we talked about those songs and he was like "Yeah, those songs were great. It's just I was not prepared to engage in a hobby that is like fun to me in like a way that was painful and intense." I think everyone has sort of been in that position, right? Has been in a position of being desperate or depressed or sad or frustrated or angry and like a lot of his songs so perfectly capture those feelings that I think I think like if you're looking for someone something a piece of music or art to sort of validate a very specific emotional experience, I think you'll find it in The Mountain Goats very easily.

TESS: Oh! This, this is so... I'm so excited to, like, delve into, into his music now. Is there a particular piece you recommend starting with or album starting with? You keep talking about the, the album This Year?

JEFF: The Sunset Tree if you can, if you can deal with the the subject matter which is intense, I think is very, very good.

TESS (as narrator): Going into The Mountain Goats with only the conversation with Jeff as my knowledge of the music was an experience. I knew that The Sunset Tree would move me but I wasn't quite sure in what way. So on a lunch hour at work, I sat down with the spring sun shining on me and my notebook in hand, I logged out of my email and social media so that I wouldn't be distracted. Well. I took notes on every single song of that album. About three songs and I was glad that I had the privilege to be able to shut my office door so that no one could see me crying. So much of this album is heavy and intense. And it makes me sad but also hopeful because the album ends with the song Pale Green Things, which is a beautiful song that screamed to me the confusion, relief, and peace that must have befallen John following his step-father's death. Jeff was right. John's writing is so real and raw, but it's incredible that he made something so beautiful out of something so terrible.

JEFF: All Hail West Texas is one of his more iconic albums that I think is... that's the album that like my brother specifically said when I initially asked him I was like "Hey, I'm into this now, like, where do I go?" He was like "Listen to All Hail West Texas." It's 14 songs about, like, stories that all take place in West Texas. Speaking of songs that like I come back to all the time. The first song on that album is 'The Best Ever Death Metal Band out of Denton'. And it's about two guys in Denton, West Texas who form a death metal band and it does not go well because they are growing up in a fundamentalist religious community which looks down on death metal and Satan and all that sort of heavy metal iconography. But it's about like the the sentiment that like people can hurt you and can be cruel to you, but like you can still believe and hope and resilience and like push back and and say "I am going to believe in this, believe in like the righteousness of my fury and like the pureness of what I am believing" and it that there's a quote from think it's John Green on the first episode of 'I Only Listen To The Mountain Goats' in which he says: The song ends with the words, you know with the, with the chorus of just Hail Satan. But, like, it transforms that into basic- into like almost a hymn, because it's this beautiful sentiment of like "I am saying this because I am believing in myself in defiance of... of what people who have set out to break my dreams have tried to put upon me." And so All Hail West Texas is very good. You know again, it's got a lot of and similarly intense subject matter, but I think it's a great album that tells some beautiful stories.

TESS (as narrator): All Hail West Texas was enjoyable, and I did like the stories and was able to connect some of the experiences having grown up in a Christian church myself. This album was fascinating. But as for Beat The Champ I don't know why I expected the wrestling songs to be funny without any depth when Jeff told me that he was surprised by their depth? But even not being into wrestling, I loved this album. It told me stories that I'd never heard and I found myself deep in Google land reading everything I could about these wrestlers I'd never heard of. And Sasha Banks is so badass. I fell deep into reading about how cool she is.

JEFF: When the Dungeons and Dragons album comes out in April, I would say that's probably a great starting point if you are into sort of fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons and things because I think like part of it is... I was having this conversation with a friend and we had said like "Beat The Champ speaks to me on this deep emotional personal level" and he had said "yeah, I liked it but like it didn't like speak to my being in the same way that it for you." And then he said, "But I grew up a goth." And the follow up album to beat the champ is God's and it's all about growing up in the goth scene in the 80s. And so like he was like, "That album I listened to! And I was like, Oh my god, this is this is like my teenage years put like distilled down into 15 songs." And I was like, "Yeah, exactly. That's what the wrestling album is! It's like my It's like my mid-20s adult life of falling in love with wrestling put into an album-."

So like I think he has a lot of like sort of concept-ish albums that if there is one that like speaks to a like if you were a goth in high school, I would recommend 'Goths'. If you like wrestling, I would recommend 'Beat The Champ'. If you are a religious person, one of his albums, I forget the name of it is... there's there's at least one or two albums that very are very much about his experience as a as a very religious person who nonetheless struggles with sort of a lot of, with sort of certain elements of like religious doctrine and sort of his way of processing those. Like there are very their albums that deal with very specific subject matter that if those subject matter relates to you, you'll go "Yep, this is this is speaking to a part of my being that like I barely knew was there.

TESS: What would you say to John Darnielle, if you were to meet him today?

JEFF: My gut says... my gut says very little because I think I'd be real anxious. But like if I could get past that, I think I would say thank you for making music that speaks to me and thank you for being who you are. Because I think that's the other half is like... you know, reading interviews and hearing him on podcasts and things I highly recommend the podcast 'I Only Listen to The Mountain Goats' in which Joseph Fink from Night Vale talks to John Darnielle about like track through track for one of their albums. It also involves a lot of cover songs. It's a very good podcast. But like hearing him talk and just like hearing him be who he is; somebody who is intensely passionate and is like, remarkably empathetic and is seemingly infinitely knowledgeable about things.

Like every time I've heard him in an interview talking to someone, he just seems to have this quality where you can bring up any topic and he'll just go, "Oh yeah, I know about that." And he'll drop a fact that shows that he's not just like blowing smoke, he really does seem to just know that? And it's that, it's that kind of like, he just has that sort of mysterious cool friend quality? And like I just seeing that sort of empathy and that sort of infinite ability to relate and to connect with someone is inspiring in its own right. And and so you know, I think I would thank him for being him and for making so much art that means so much to so many people and that means so much to me. And then also I thank you for being you and for having that sort of endless compassion for people and... but and and... just thank you. I would say thank you. And then probably, you know, ask him what LARPS he's played with Jason Morningstar lately because they're friends who play role playing games together.

TESS: That's awesome.

JEFF: And you know that that means he's played some really interesting fascinating LARPS that I really want to like, get into.

TESS: Be a fly on the wall.

JEFF: Yeah, right?

TESS: Yeah, absolutely.

JEFF: Dream table.

TESS: Yeah. This was wonderful listening to you talk about this; I'm so excited to delve into it. I really am.

JEFF: So I'm so tremendously happy.

TESS (as narrator): John Darnielle has an amazing repertoire of deep personal songs he wrote based on his own experiences. They're beautiful and heartbreaking, funny and catchy. I found myself connecting in ways that I didn't expect and sharing my thoughts about the depths of the various songs and albums with my husband and friends. It was incredible to fall into his music over and over again. There's so much of it to experience. You can find John Darnielle at johndarnielle.com. That's J-O-H-N-D-A-R-N-I-E-L-L-E dot com. You can find The Mountain Goats at mountain-goats.com.


And now, you probably won't be surprised with what comes next. It's time for the reverse roast.

Jeff Stormer.

Wow, do I ever love Jeff Stormer and the work that he does. I want to talk about how important the community-building Jeff does is. He works so hard to engage constantly and positively and kindly in the RPG community with fans, designers, podcasters, players, GMs.... Jeff works really hard to bring light to everything he touches. He puts so much work and care into the way he interacts both in podcast and in the community. He wrote the Core Principle for International Podcast Month, which has seeped beautifully into so many other podcasts, with his permission of course. One of my favorite things that Jeff has ever said to me is "Self Care is radical." He promotes taking care of yourself before you can take care of others and how important taking care of each other is in a growing community that is pushing toxicity out the window.

Jeff has two shows: Party of One podcast, an actual-play podcast focused on two-player roleplaying experiences. Each week, Jeff sits down with friends to play a two-player game and they share some laughs, maybe be a few tears, and have a really good time. And I can attest to that. I was a guest on Jeff's show and we played probably the cutest game I've ever played in my entire life called Threadbare. It was so much fun. His other show is called All My Fantasy Children and it's a storytelling world building and collaborative character creation podcast powered by you! Each week, Jeff, and his best friend Aaron, take a listener-submitted prompt and spin it into an original fantasy character using some of their favorite tabletop-RPGs as inspiration. Along the way they connect to stories and characters fleshing out of rich, diverse, and inclusive shared universe one character at a time.

You can find Jeff at jeffstormer.com. Jeff, thank you so much for introducing me to John Darnielle. And John... if for some reason you're listening, thank you for giving my friend with the gift of your music, which in turn he was able to give back to me. Thank you.

Cheers and sweetness.


Honey Roast is co-produced by Tess Cocchio and Julia Schifini, edited by Tess Cocchio and Julia Schifini, with sound design by Julia Schifini. Special thanks to our creative consultant, Wil Williams. Our visual design and art assets are by Mandy Corcoran and our theme music is composed by Emily E. Meo.

All music from this episode, apart from the theme music, is by Chad Crouch on the Free Music Archive and licensed under a Creative Commons license. Link in the shownotes.

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